Onosma and Lindelofia

Suffering from not enough sun and soil too rich for its liking, here is my Onosma alboroseum, or so the seed packet said.  i think it does pretty well, but just think of how it really should look!

I dunno, Rick, I think it looks very nice.  (You realize we'll all be hitting you up for seeds, now?)  Do you have any close-ups of the flowers?

I've never tried Onosma but I have seeds for this year.  With 60" precip a year I am limited to aquatic alpines!

The Lindelofia longifolia did come from me....a stunning plant for a large rockery.

Boland wrote:

I've never tried Onosma but I have seeds for this year.  With 60" precip a year I am limited to aquatic alpines!

The Lindelofia longifolia did come from me....a stunning plant for a large rockery.

Todd, that's a great looking plant.  How tall is it, and when does it flower? 

Your mention of 60" precip a year reminds me of Grand Ridge Nursery in Issaquah, Washington, where the owners Phil Pearson and Steve Doonan (sadly Steve recently deceased, a huge loss) devised alpine growing techniques specifically to meet the challenge of growing in an area of high rainfall (60+ inches, such as in your climate).  With some alpines and dryland plants they still struggled, but they were successful with a great many plants; growing them in enormous hard-fired clay pots that Phil made, sitting on benches fully exposed to weather year round, the pots filled from edge to edge with such treasures as Viola flettii or Campanula piperi, amazing.

How does that method differ from trough growing?  Is it, perhaps, the height of the containers?

Rick, nice looking Onosma albo-roseum.  Do the flowers age pink or blue for you?  I grew this for a few years about a decade ago, liked it very much, but probably didn't give it enough drainage and it died one winter.  By the way Onosma alboroseum is highly variable, and there are several subspecies.  Here is a link to another forum thread, scroll down and look at the last photo showing a beautiful pink and blue flowered Onosma, with bright red stems, that I believe is Onosma albo-roseum var. sanguinolentum.
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=4989.0

There's another little blue and white one in that series of unidentified Onosma, looks like a very good one.

Lori, your Lindelofia anchusoides looks like a winner with those true blue flowers.  How tall does it grow?  I got my wires crossed on growing Lindelofia; I had received seed from the MacPahil & Watson expedition to Turkey back in the late 70s, and from that I grew an unidentified boraginaceous plant.  Attempting to at least get a genus name on it, I looked at several of these confusing borags, of which Turkey has many, thinking it might be a Lindelofia, but ultimately settled on Paracaryum.  My plant had silver frosted hairy basal linear leaves, then a stem to 10"-12" or so, and drooping tubes of a unique red-maroon color.  There are 30 species in Turkey, and I never got a species name on it, and of course I lost the plant a couple years later.  To give an idea of a Paracaryum, here's a photo link:

Paracaryum racemosum
http://www.ozgurdoga.net/aciklamacicek/Paracaryum_racemosum.htm

Must start an Onosma thread, but in the meanwhile, here are some photo links to good Onosma  :o :o

Onosma albo-roseum, Turkey
http://www.ozgurdoga.net/aciklamacicek/Onosma_albo-roseum.htm

Onosma nanum, Turkey
http://www.ozgurdoga.net/aciklamacicek/Onosma_nanum.htm

Onosma cf. hookeri  Tibet, Kongpo Gyamda --> Lhasa, 3500m
http://www.jansalpines.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=2831

Onosma hookeri var. longiflorum  Tibet, Old Tingri, Lunjar village,4340m
http://www.jansalpines.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=16528

Onosma microcarpum Iran, Lorestan, Borujerd, Hashtevid Gorge, 1650m
http://www.jansalpines.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=19681

Onosma erecta, Crete
http://www.greekmountainflora.info/Crete/slides/Onosma%20erecta.html

Onosma graeca, south Peloponnese, Greece
http://www.greekmountainflora.info/Lowland/slides/Onosma%20graeca.html

Skulski wrote:

How does that method differ from trough growing?  Is it, perhaps, the height of the containers?

It's similar to trough growing, but because they were in large clay pots, they were portable, so they did have the option for example, to move potted Talinum spinescens to a bench alongside a barn for the winter, still exposed to weather, but buffered from prevailing wind and rain directions. 

But they applied a whole series of techniques. First the pots: because they fired thir own, they were the equivalent of "long toms" used in the UK, but Phil's pots were wide as well.  Phil used native clays and devised a high-fire procedure to make their pots more frostproof than typical clay pots (also, not as porous).  The nature of what they were cultivating influenced pot design, so for example, they would grow Saxifraga oppositifolia in a pot not as others, but very large and wide, as much as two feet across.  To see their huge 2' domes of Saxes in full flower was breathtaking.  When potting up a plant, such as Campanula piperi, they believed in achieving the highest level of soil aeration possible, so they scientifically devised varying soil mixes for different types of plants. And most importantly, when potting, they would hold the pot semi-sideways and carefully fill in the soil as loosely as possible... never compacting the soil even the slightest.

When I moved back to northeastern USA, I brought with me about a dozen Phil Pearson pots.  In the 24 years since I've been back in the East, I still have a couple of these pots left, but most did indeed break in the winter, the deeper New England freezing/thawing more of a challenge than in Washinton.

My Onosma alboroseum (from seed, of course) has flowers that fade only with a little pink at the ends.  So little that I initially wondered if it was suppose to be there.  Those links are great, Mark.  BTW, I donated the rest of the 1+year old seedlings to our Chapter sale, and they were a hard sell.  I thought the "dotting" on the foliage was interesting, but I guess it was too "out there" for most.  

I'm sold on Lindelofia.  Gotta get me some.

Lovely! 

Lindelofia anchusoides (formerly Adelocaryum anchusoides) gets to about 3 feet tall.

Back in 1977, I purchased a seed share in the MacPhail & Watson expedition to Turkey.  Many wonderful plants ensued, some of which resulted in plant species now well established in cultivation, many others sadly lost (the subject plant is among them).  One of the more mysterious introductions is a unique boraginaceous plant, where the identification was clearly confused.  The plant looks Onosma-like; the only identification possibility based upon the seed I actually received, is Paracaryum sp. Mac&W 5747 (described as 25 cm, smokey blue), and Rindera lanata Mac&W 5781 (30 cm, pale salmon pink).

The problem being , the flower color was rich maroon color, not matching either possibility.  My plant grew to about 14" tall (35 cm), with densely hirsute pedicels and calyxes, a beautiful silver foil to the drooping maroon bells.  So is it Paracaryum or Rindera?  Both genera are rarely encountered in cultivation.  Based upon my research I determined it is a Paracaryum, and the flower color noted by the collector's was either wrong or color was more variable than known.

These days where internet-based botanizing is possible, a photo comparison between the Paracaryum and Lindera clearly show much stronger affinity to Paracaryum than on Rindera.  The most important aspect being that the flowers in Paracaryum are more completely exposed versus Lindera where the bristly hirsute or ciliolate calyxes all but conceal the flowers.  I give some photo links for further comparison.

Both scanned photos are from plants growing in my old rock garden, July 1980.

Additional links:

Rindera lanata
http://www.alpinegarden-ulster.org.uk/POM/POM_Rindera.htm

plant
http://picasaweb.google.com/Philippe.Rabaute/VoyageBotaniqueTurquie2007P...

flowers
http://picasaweb.google.com/Philippe.Rabaute/VoyageBotaniqueTurquie2007P...

seed pods
http://picasaweb.google.com/Philippe.Rabaute/VoyageBotaniqueTurquie2007P...

more plant & herbarium views
http://vanherbaryum.yyu.edu.tr/flora/famgenustur/bo/ri/la/ca/index.htm

http://vanherbaryum.yyu.edu.tr/flora/famgenustur/bo/ri/la/ca/pages/Rinde...(LAM_)%20BUNGE%20var_%20canescens%20(A_%20DC_)%20KUSN_%20%20%20%20%20%20_jpg.htm

http://agaclar.net/galeri/showimage.php?i=27828&catid=member&imageuser=4429

http://www.henriettesherbal.com/pictures/p12/pages/rindera-lanata.htm

Rindera graeca (scroll to near bottom of gallery)
http://www.picsearch.com/info.cgi?q=Rindera&id=sHn-aaP8FN89OwwKnnkMtYPRB...

Paracaryum racemosum (Schreber) Britten var. racemosum
http://picasaweb.google.com/Philippe.Rabaute/VoyageBotaniqueTurquie2007P...

Lindelofia longifolia also reaches close to 3 feet...perhaps better suited to a perennial border but it looks OK if the rockery is large enough.

I have a rock wall with super drainage and relatively little snow cover all winter...I'll try my drylanders there to see if they could be a go.  Right now the plants there are pretty basic...mainly because it is roght along the sidewalk...I don;t knwo if iI'd want to grow anything too rare there!

Boland wrote:

Right now the plants there are pretty basic...mainly because it is roght along the sidewalk...I don;t knwo if iI'd want to grow anything too rare there!

On the other hand, it will be protected by its relative obscurity.  :)

Considering I live on such a busy street and there is lots of pedestrian traffic since there is a convenience store nearby, I have yet (touch wood) had a problem with people ripping up the plants along the rock wall.  I'm sure the locals would not recognize a plant as 'rare'.  I do have a Ramonda under the Potentilla at the end of the wall and so far, so good.

Yes, I know what you're saying.  We live on a relatively busy corner; the front street is a bus route, as well as the way to a little shopping mall, and there is a playground behind us down the side street.  We, unfortunately, do get a bit of what we think of as "vandalism" every year... ranging from quite innocent to intentional (though nothing really serious).  It does sometimes target showier plants, e.g. evil hellspawn child whacking off tulips with stick, young babysitter advising her juvenile charges to pick lilies, etc.. (I must have the patience of a saint, given that I have not yet installed land mines.  ::))  It doesn't normally affect any of the plants that I actually prize, thankfully.  I don't expect anyone knows what any of them are anyway!

It looks like you have a very nice rock wall there.  (Not to mention an ample expanse of lawn for future projects...  ;))

Here is Onosma sericea stellulata, which I grew from seed years ago, and which has been hardy here.  Be careful when you do spring clean-up around Onosma - the bristly hairs on the dried leaves and stems are like cactus glochids.   :o

A very interesting and attractive plant there, Mark.
Here's another Rindera species from the Pavelka site, Rindera caespitosa:
http://www.pavelkaalpines.cz/Photos/Garden2008/rinderacaespitosa.html

Skulski wrote:

A very interesting and attractive plant there, Mark.
Here's another Rindera species from the Pavelka site, Rindera caespitosa:
http://www.pavelkaalpines.cz/Photos/Garden2008/rinderacaespitosa.html

Wow, thanks for that one, fantastic, a lovely plant.  But now I'm confused more than ever about Rindera and Paracaryum, both being obscure genera of plants,  The links I provided of Rindera lanata show plants with heavily ciliolate involucres, the species with fairly consistent pink petals, but with trademark insanely silvered and wiskered pedicels and involucres that hold the flowers, almost more of a show than the flowers themselves.  In the one link I provided of Greek Rindera graeca, and in your R. caespitosa example, I see plants that look like Paracaryum, with showy flowers clear of the calyx lobes.  In fact, many of these boraginaceous delights seem to be assigned to one genus or another depending on author and what day of the week it is  ;)

Although Onosma alboroseum is a bit bristly, I never found it to be so stiff (or bloodletting) as cactus thorns.  At least that is my experience.

Absolutely right, not like cactus thorns at all, but the dried bristles on Onosma stellulatum stick in the skin and cause the sort of irritation similar to that caused by cactus glochids... I try to remember to wear gloves.  :)

Mark: you have made major botanical history by hybridizing two borages (Lindelofia and Rindera) to produce a shrub in the Lauraceae. I think this is Nobel Prize level hybridization indeed. No wonder you're so lightheaded! You have indeed turned a page of botanical history! We need a newer, more glorious Avatar.

I grew Rindera lanata for several years at Eudora (from Archibald seed) and have some transparencies I ought to scan: it's terrific, although not as stunning in flower as it is emerging from the ground as a great wooly ball of fuzzy glory. I collected seed of yet another Rindera in Kazakhstan last summer: huge, papery seedpods unlike any other borage. Hopefully these will produce plants!

As long as you're producing such spectacular crosses, how about a gentian blue rose or a

Kelaidis wrote:

Mark: you have made major botanical history by hybridizing two borages (Lindelofia and Rindera) to produce a shrub in the Lauraceae. I think this is Nobel Prize level hybridization indeed. No wonder you're so lightheaded! You have indeed turned a page of botanical history! We need a newer, more glorious Avatar.

I grew Rindera lanata for several years at Eudora (from Archibald seed) and have some transparencies I ought to scan: it's terrific, although not as stunning in flower as it is emerging from the ground as a great wooly ball of fuzzy glory. I collected seed of yet another Rindera in Kazakhstan last summer: huge, papery seedpods unlike any other borage. Hopefully these will produce plants!

As long as you're producing such spectacular crosses, how about a gentian blue rose or a

OK, I got the hint... so I go back to my previous posting to find out where you're getting the Lauraceae reference, then spotted it... dohHHH!  Not only once but twice I slipped up and wrote Lindera instead of Rindera... aarrggghhhh!  But now that you made the suggestion, I might begin looking into such a cross. ;D

Working on a new Avatar.

Can't wait to see if you get good results on your Rindera in Kazakhstan.  Did you see any intergeneric crosses between Rindera & Lindera while in Kazakhstan?... I think these are called x RindeLindera.  ;D ;D

By the way, for those who want to get a plant of Paracayum racemosum, I see it available from Beaver Creek Greenhouses (shipping to USA & Canada), Plants of Paracaryum racemosum v. racemosum, Askale - Turkey, Zone 4, $6.00.
http://www.rockgardenplants.com/plantcatmain.htm

Photo: Paracaryum racemosum
http://www.ozgurdoga.net/aciklamacicek/Paracaryum_racemosum.htm

Wrightman Alpines also has Paracaryum racemosum:
http://www.wrightmanalpines.com/details.asp?PRODUCT_ID=P173

Rocky Mountain Rare Plants has seed, check out the 2nd photo link, it'll knock you socks off... looks different than the previous pics of Paracaryum racemosum.  Their seed list is now closed for the summer, one can hope for next years catalog.
http://www.rmrp.com/Catalog/CatalogContentP.htm
http://www.rmrp.com/Photo%20Pages/PP/Paracaryum%20racemosum001_ZZ100DPI.htm

All those links to Onosma are enough to drive me crazy: especially that icy blue Onosma nanum: OH to get my hand on that. There is a red one in Turkey too...uggggh.

I have grown a half dozen, maybe a dozen yellow species over the years (echioides, stellulatum, helveticum, etc. etc.) and I confess, many look much alike, and I have no doubt they have all hybridized: at one point the Rock Alpine Garden was overrun with these, and with Pulsatilla vulgaris, Alyssum montanum, Allium flavum and a half dozen other vigorous self sowers: under current management (Mike Kintgen) all these have been restrained in order to showcase choicer plants...

But the ribald madness maintains itself at my house where I have what are probably now hopelessly hybridized Onosmas all over the place: they are thriving in cracks in the concrete, in a low stone wallk, in my unwatered xeriscape...everywhere I neglect to pull them out (which is everywhere). They bloom forever and the only bad thing about them is cutting them back (ouch! worse than cacti!)...but do I have a single picture to prove all this? In your best John Belushi voice repeat: "Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo"

Onosma paniculatum sounds like an interesting one, with blue- purple flowers, becoming dark red!  

I got seeds from Pavelka, and have had good germination.  His description: " 3400m, Zhongdian Mts., China; tufted plant, linear leaves,erect scapes 20-40cm,many blue-violet flowers, stoney slopes, shrubberies."

http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=200019166

From NARGS Seedex several years back, labeled Onosma nana, came a rather tall Onosma species, about 30-40 cm, very bristly foliage, and large and lovely luminous pale yellow flowers.  Showy, but definitely not O. nana, the true species supposed to have white flowers tinged pink or blue, and red stems and calyxes, and of course, short stems.

The second is an Onosma species from Turkey.  The silver leaves are not bristly, stems tend to be decumbent, to about 20-25 cm tall, narrower bright yellow flowers.  This was from a known location in Turkey, although the lable has disappeared

I'm working on trying to identify these serviceable, hardy "borags".

Searching http://www.ipni.org/ipni/plantnamesearchpage.do and inputting "Onosma" and "*" for the species name, comes up with 438 names!  Onosma is a big genus, with most of those having yellow flowers.

The name 'Golden Drop' seems to be a common name for yellow Onosma species in general.  Reginald Farrer writes about O. tauricum "Our well-beloved favourite old Onosma, the one and only Golden Drop of the garden", and goes on to say "gracious croziers of hanging ample flowers of a waxy and lemony lusciousness peculiar to themselves, and exactly asking for the name of Golden Drop in their melting confectionery clarity of colour and texture" . (he sure could pile it on  :D )
 
It is likely that my plant is one of the commonly grown Onosma species; echioides, stellulata, helveticum, tauricum, or others.  I need to take a closer look at each of these species descriptions to see if I can find a match.  The foliage on helveticum is described as bristly, so at least that aspect matches, but many Onosma are bristly.

I found a photo link to the "Pyrenaean Golden Drop" (O. bubanii), a lovely Onosma with soft moonlight yellow flowers similar to my plant: http://www.lafloredespyrenees.fr/boraginacgenres/onosmabub/onos2.html

For comparison purposes, I have cropped a closeup flower crozier of my unknown "Onosma sp.", and compared side by side with two other species.  In the first, it is compared with a similarly sized crozier of Onosma stellulata (stellulatum?).  The flower shape and calyx lobe segments look similar in both, but stellulata has distinct green leaf-like bracts in the unfurling crozier, not seen in my plant. The same comparison with my "sp" and O. bubanii from a web image (flipped to face the same direction), again shows a similar looking plant, but the calyx segments look much longer against the flower in O. bubanii.

Skulski wrote:

Onosma paniculatum sounds like an interesting one, with blue- purple flowers, becoming dark red!  

I got seeds from Pavelka, and have had good germination.  His description: " 3400m, Zhongdian Mts., China; tufted plant, linear leaves,erect scapes 20-40cm,many blue-violet flowers, stoney slopes, shrubberies."

http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=200019166

Oh my!  Lori, that's an exciting one, keep us posted on the progress of this plant... and if it does flower one day and produce seed, please remember us Boragiphiles :)   Also, maybe Harvey Wrightman (http://www.WrightmanAlpines.com) will add this to his list one day, seems that he sells many species derived from Pavelka seed.  I notice from the plants he was selling at the NARGS Eastern Study Weekend at Devens, Massachusetts, that he has some plants in too small a quantity to put into his nursery list, yet may be available if asked.  I was able to buy Onosma araraticum (from Mt. Ararat, Turkey) which is not in his list, and at long last Paracaryum racemosum (upper right), which is on his list.  I'm excited!  I will post more about some of the NARGS ESW vendors elsewhere on this forum.

A blue Onosma pic, O. sinicum:
http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=104467&flora_id=800

Onosma frutescens, nice yellow species from Parnassos & the Peloponnese, Malea Peninsula
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5063.0;attach...

Kelaidis wrote:

All those links to Onosma are enough to drive me crazy: especially that icy blue Onosma nanum: OH to get my hand on that. There is a red one in Turkey too...uggggh.

I have grown a half dozen, maybe a dozen yellow species over the years (echioides, stellulatum, helveticum, etc. etc.) and I confess, many look much alike,

But the ribald madness maintains itself at my house where I have what are probably now hopelessly hybridized Onosmas all over the place: they are thriving in cracks in the concrete, in a low stone wallk, in my unwatered xeriscape...everywhere I neglect to pull them out (which is everywhere). They bloom forever and the only bad thing about them is cutting them back (ouch! worse than cacti!)...but do I have a single picture to prove all this? In your best John Belushi voice repeat: "Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo"

I have yet to have a self-sown Onosma seedling appear in my garden... maybe I don't have as diverse a gene pool as you have to get such seed set.  I want to get some Onosma growing out of cracks in my driveway ;D  I found out this spring, that even my Onosma sp. from Turkey, which has silky hispid leaves and can be handled without worry during the growing season, it too releases glochid-like irritant hairs when cleaning up around the plant without gloves on!  PS: are you sure John Belushi said that, I though it was Mr. Bill ;D

No luck with Onosma at my end...sowed seeds of two species and neither germinated...they would probably die over winter here anyway so no great loss.

Boland wrote:

No luck with Onosma at my end...sowed seeds of two species and neither germinated...they would probably die over winter here anyway so no great loss.

Or, possibly croak in spring... above in this thread I show photos of an Omosma species from Turkey, weeks ago I cleaned up all of the blown in oak and magnolia leaf debris around the plant, now after yet another 3-day marathon of pouring rain and gale force winds, the plant looks a sorry lot now, like a drowned rat, many of the terminal rosettes no longer showing signs of life.  A couple young Helichrysum plants I had in pots looked great up until last week... now all the terminal shoots are mush.  The taller moonlight yellow Onosma planted on a sand enbankment still looks fine.

I grew Onosma euboica from seed last year - another yellow-flowered one, apparently - and they have wintered over successfully.  This one is evergreen here, unlike O. stellulatum.

Skulski wrote:

I grew Onosma euboica from seed last year - another yellow-flowered one, apparently - and they have wintered over successfully.  This one is evergreen here, unlike O. stellulatum.

I grow three Onosma currently, O. spa, and another O. spa, and the O. spa from Turkey... and all three are evergreen here.  Even the Turkish one that I mentioned got beatup with the incessant rain storm, managed to survive the onslaught and seems to be liking the last two 80 F (25 C) days.

Following up from a photo of a small purchased plant of Paracaryum racemosum, the plant overwintered and is in flower now; a stunning blue color, caught me by surprise when I chanced upon it in bloom.  The first photo is taken at dusk, the photo on the right in bright midday sunshine.  It's a small affair, only about 8" tall.  Some of my other borags (3 Onosma species) did not survive the winter after being in the garden for 4-5 years. :'(

Wow.... I like!!

Paracaryum - I've once or twice seen the name but what a great plant! The borage family seems to contain no weeds. The little annual Omphalodes linifolia (often sent to the seed exchanges as luciliae or luciliae alba) is a persistant favourite. Onosmas never seem to keep going long here and I haven't grown them for a few years but I shall try again in a sand or crevice type bed (they are amongst the worst of all plants to extract seed from - but borage seed is particularly fascinating...)

The borage family has never been any success to me -  except the common borage (Borago officinalis) which I had in the kitchengarden for several years. Even if it is an annual several plants popped up everywhere in many, many years and grew to immense proportions.

Paracaryum racemosum seems to be a plant worth trying anyway!

I've posted this elsewhere but it seems to belong on this thread.  All the Onosma alboroseum I've grown in the garden have had white flowers, with the ends turning purple-pink in varying degrees.  This one is a really lovely color form, the ends of the flowers  coral-pink.  I have some self-sown seedlings coming along and hopefully, it seeded true.  These plants become very woody quite early and I have no idea how else to propagate them.  Has anyone had any success with cuttings?  I'd really like to keep this color form going.

Tim wrote:

 The borage family seems to contain no weeds.

A few thousand Aussie farmers would like to disagree with you Tim! ;D Patterson's curse is a form of Echium which infests thousands of hectares of arable land. Very pretty when in flower, but dangerous to horses and very invasive. The Borags due well for us in Central Victoria, but some do too well. A few years ago we got a plant of Nonea lutea beacuse it looked so much like a primrose coloured Pulmonaria. I was pleased to see how well it prospered but the next year hundreds of seedlings emerged and I realised we could've had the yellow equivalent of Patterson's Curse! Not prepared for the emergence of "Fermi's Curse" to take off from our garden I spent the next few years weeding it out - but every now and then new seedlings appear!
Onosma sp (pale yellow) did well in our rock garden for years but never set any seed and I've now got some seedlings of Onosma nana to try.
The one seedling I raised of Paracaryum died in the wet weather last year :rolleyes:
cheers
fermi